Comments on: McCain finds himself on the horns of a political and moral dilemma http://blogs.e-rockford.com/applesauce/2008/05/11/mccain-finds-himself-on-the-horns-of-a-political-and-moral-dilemma/ Pat Cunningham offers an unabashedly liberal perspective on national politics. A note of caution: The language gets a litttle salty on some of the sites to which this blog links. So, don't say you weren't warned. By the way, this blog's name is inspired by the Will Rogers quote, "All politics is applesauce." Fri, 21 Nov 2008 18:01:45 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=wordpress-mu-1.2.4 By: Bookworm http://blogs.e-rockford.com/applesauce/2008/05/11/mccain-finds-himself-on-the-horns-of-a-political-and-moral-dilemma/#comment-3050 Bookworm Fri, 06 Jun 2008 03:40:20 +0000 http://blogs.e-rockford.com/applesauce/2008/05/11/mccain-finds-himself-on-the-horns-of-a-political-and-moral-dilemma/#comment-3050 Good post. This is exactly the argument groups like American Life League make in defense of their no-compromise approach to abortion. However, you overlook the fact that there is always going to be tension between maintaining ideological/logical consistency and making realistic progress on any issue, particularly a highly charged moral issue. Sometimes you do have to settle for what is possible rather than what is ideal, lest you end up doing absolutely nothing. The perfect should not become the enemy of the good. By that yardstick, Lincoln did not have a "logical" or "consistent" position on slavery -- he didn't want it abolished outright, just confined to the existing slave states -- and many abolitionists considered him to be too soft on the issue. The Emancipation Proclamation didn't actually free a single slave when it was promulgated; it was carefully worded to apply only to the Confederate states which weren't going to obey it anyway, so as not to alienate the border slave states still loyal to the Union. Yet, he is the president who went down in history as having "freed the slaves." I also agree with Chuck Sweeny's idea that abortion should not be a partisan issue at all. I think it is a human rights issue that transcends party politics. The pro-life movement has suffered greatly from being too closely tied to President Bush, the conservative wing of the Republican Party and all their attendant baggage (death penalty, gun rights, taxes, immigration, etc.) I would be happy to see BOTH parties -- heck, ALL parties including Greens, Libertarians, Socialists, etc. -- remove any stand for or against abortion from their official platforms. Anyone who espouses a party's basic economic and foreign policy approach ought to be welcome in the party regardless of whether they are pro-life or pro-choice. Good post. This is exactly the argument groups like American Life League make in defense of their no-compromise approach to abortion. However, you overlook the fact that there is always going to be tension between maintaining ideological/logical consistency and making realistic progress on any issue, particularly a highly charged moral issue. Sometimes you do have to settle for what is possible rather than what is ideal, lest you end up doing absolutely nothing. The perfect should not become the enemy of the good.

By that yardstick, Lincoln did not have a “logical” or “consistent” position on slavery — he didn’t want it abolished outright, just confined to the existing slave states — and many abolitionists considered him to be too soft on the issue. The Emancipation Proclamation didn’t actually free a single slave when it was promulgated; it was carefully worded to apply only to the Confederate states which weren’t going to obey it anyway, so as not to alienate the border slave states still loyal to the Union. Yet, he is the president who went down in history as having “freed the slaves.”

I also agree with Chuck Sweeny’s idea that abortion should not be a partisan issue at all. I think it is a human rights issue that transcends party politics. The pro-life movement has suffered greatly from being too closely tied to President Bush, the conservative wing of the Republican Party and all their attendant baggage (death penalty, gun rights, taxes, immigration, etc.)

I would be happy to see BOTH parties — heck, ALL parties including Greens, Libertarians, Socialists, etc. — remove any stand for or against abortion from their official platforms. Anyone who espouses a party’s basic economic and foreign policy approach ought to be welcome in the party regardless of whether they are pro-life or pro-choice.

]]> By: coldhotel http://blogs.e-rockford.com/applesauce/2008/05/11/mccain-finds-himself-on-the-horns-of-a-political-and-moral-dilemma/#comment-2459 coldhotel Tue, 13 May 2008 18:15:58 +0000 http://blogs.e-rockford.com/applesauce/2008/05/11/mccain-finds-himself-on-the-horns-of-a-political-and-moral-dilemma/#comment-2459 I think abortion is a mortal sin; since abortion coincides with religious morality the government should not outlaw it, though it may certainly be regulated. So I guess that makes me a member of the appendix school in your words, though I hardly equate the two. I think abortion is a mortal sin; since abortion coincides with religious morality the government should not outlaw it, though it may certainly be regulated. So I guess that makes me a member of the appendix school in your words, though I hardly equate the two.

]]> By: Pat Cunningham http://blogs.e-rockford.com/applesauce/2008/05/11/mccain-finds-himself-on-the-horns-of-a-political-and-moral-dilemma/#comment-2447 Pat Cunningham Mon, 12 May 2008 23:23:58 +0000 http://blogs.e-rockford.com/applesauce/2008/05/11/mccain-finds-himself-on-the-horns-of-a-political-and-moral-dilemma/#comment-2447 Yeah, good. No, I mean it. Yeah, good. No, I mean it.

]]> By: Mike Carroll http://blogs.e-rockford.com/applesauce/2008/05/11/mccain-finds-himself-on-the-horns-of-a-political-and-moral-dilemma/#comment-2446 Mike Carroll Mon, 12 May 2008 23:09:29 +0000 http://blogs.e-rockford.com/applesauce/2008/05/11/mccain-finds-himself-on-the-horns-of-a-political-and-moral-dilemma/#comment-2446 I have been absent for a few days but I see we have the return of Kaus. Good. I have been absent for a few days but I see we have the return of Kaus. Good.

]]> By: Kaus http://blogs.e-rockford.com/applesauce/2008/05/11/mccain-finds-himself-on-the-horns-of-a-political-and-moral-dilemma/#comment-2436 Kaus Mon, 12 May 2008 16:16:55 +0000 http://blogs.e-rockford.com/applesauce/2008/05/11/mccain-finds-himself-on-the-horns-of-a-political-and-moral-dilemma/#comment-2436 Pat, you make it sound so black and white regarding abortion. Are just republicans hypocritical? Although many states now have fetal homicide laws, there are a wide variety of differences about when a fetus is considered living. In Missouri and 17 other states, the laws recognize a fetus as living at the time of conception. I should also say that Obama is quite extreme on the other end of the spectrum regarding partial birth abortion. Pat, you make it sound so black and white regarding abortion. Are just republicans hypocritical? Although many states now have fetal homicide laws, there are a wide variety of differences about when a fetus is considered living. In Missouri and 17 other states, the laws recognize a fetus as living at the time of conception.

I should also say that Obama is quite extreme on the other end of the spectrum regarding partial birth abortion.

]]> By: Chuck Sweeny http://blogs.e-rockford.com/applesauce/2008/05/11/mccain-finds-himself-on-the-horns-of-a-political-and-moral-dilemma/#comment-2429 Chuck Sweeny Mon, 12 May 2008 01:37:04 +0000 http://blogs.e-rockford.com/applesauce/2008/05/11/mccain-finds-himself-on-the-horns-of-a-political-and-moral-dilemma/#comment-2429 There are a lot of pro-life Democrats who have been forced underground by the pro-aborttion majority of the Democratic Party. I think abortion should not be a partisan issue at all, but treated as it is in Parliament, where there are no party positions on abortion; rather it is one of a number of "free vote" issues. The only thing political parties are good for -- if they're good for anything other than "my guys get jobs versus your guys get jobs" -- is economic and foreign policy issues. PS: Are you of the appendix school? There are a lot of pro-life Democrats who have been forced underground by the pro-aborttion majority of the Democratic Party. I think abortion should not be a partisan issue at all, but treated as it is in Parliament, where there are no party positions on abortion; rather it is one of a number of “free vote” issues.

The only thing political parties are good for — if they’re good for anything other than “my guys get jobs versus your guys get jobs” — is economic and foreign policy issues.

PS: Are you of the appendix school?

]]> By: Henry http://blogs.e-rockford.com/applesauce/2008/05/11/mccain-finds-himself-on-the-horns-of-a-political-and-moral-dilemma/#comment-2427 Henry Mon, 12 May 2008 01:04:45 +0000 http://blogs.e-rockford.com/applesauce/2008/05/11/mccain-finds-himself-on-the-horns-of-a-political-and-moral-dilemma/#comment-2427 That\'s right, coldhotel. The pro-life crowd has never advocated charging women who have had an abortion with murder. But judging from their rhetoric, that would be logical. That\’s right, coldhotel. The pro-life crowd has never advocated charging women who have had an abortion with murder. But judging from their rhetoric, that would be logical.

]]> By: ROTStar http://blogs.e-rockford.com/applesauce/2008/05/11/mccain-finds-himself-on-the-horns-of-a-political-and-moral-dilemma/#comment-2424 ROTStar Sun, 11 May 2008 22:12:14 +0000 http://blogs.e-rockford.com/applesauce/2008/05/11/mccain-finds-himself-on-the-horns-of-a-political-and-moral-dilemma/#comment-2424 Pat, excellent post! I'm not sure it will be that big an issue considering the alternative. David Pat, excellent post!

I’m not sure it will be that big an issue considering the alternative.

David

]]> By: coldhotel http://blogs.e-rockford.com/applesauce/2008/05/11/mccain-finds-himself-on-the-horns-of-a-political-and-moral-dilemma/#comment-2423 coldhotel Sun, 11 May 2008 20:03:04 +0000 http://blogs.e-rockford.com/applesauce/2008/05/11/mccain-finds-himself-on-the-horns-of-a-political-and-moral-dilemma/#comment-2423 You left out something: the myth that the Republican party would actually criminalize abortion. They talk pro-life, but they generally stop short of actually making abortions illegal. Regulate, perhaps, and even harassing women at abortion clinics, but they won't actually outlaw abortion. You left out something: the myth that the Republican party would actually criminalize abortion. They talk pro-life, but they generally stop short of actually making abortions illegal. Regulate, perhaps, and even harassing women at abortion clinics, but they won’t actually outlaw abortion.

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