28 Comments Add your own

• 1. Menlo Bob  |  June 4th, 2008 at 11:43 am

  It’s shocking SHOCKING that there are Catholics that want to back up their theology by holding followers to a standard. Why can’t people just make up their own rules on how to believe? Heh.

  While we’re at it–how come reporters don’t want to know what Barack Obama believes? Are they afraid to find out that he believes what Rev. Wright has always believed? This is truely a don’t ask, don’t tell policy being used by our media.

• 2. redrover  |  June 4th, 2008 at 11:53 am

  Back before Bush and his thugs invaded Iraq, the Catholic Church — specifically the US Conference of Catholic Bishops, then Pope John Paul II, and current Pope Benedict XVI who was then Cardinal Ratzinger — denounced the planned invasion as unjustified and therefore an immoral taking of human lives.

  So, when is the Catholic Church going to deny Communion to Catholics who support that war and who vote for politicians who voted for and continue to support it?

  I won’t be holding my breath.

  Pope Benedict, during his recent visit to the US, not only did not even mention the Iraq War and its immorality, but also met with and heaped praise upon the people who were responsible for it. What a pious coward and fraud! What a holy-roller hypocrite!

  Perhaps the Church’s “pro-life” policy applies only to unborn human life, and not to those of us who have already left our mothers’ wombs behind.

  I walked out of the Roman-nazi Catholic Church 40 years ago, and seeing stuff like this makes me glad that I did.

  RedRover

• 3. Mike Carroll  |  June 4th, 2008 at 12:03 pm

  RedRover-here’s a hint. No one misses you.

• 4. Pat Cunningham  |  June 4th, 2008 at 12:38 pm

  Hey, Mike: Does anybody miss me, a former angelic altar boy?

• 5. Mike Carroll  |  June 4th, 2008 at 1:28 pm

  Pat-I have heard that the wine supply lasted much longer when you departed.

• 6. Pat Cunningham  |  June 4th, 2008 at 1:51 pm

  Mike: I can still recite the Suscipiat from memory — in Latin. But then, I can also recite the limericks about the man from Nantucket…and the man from Madras…and the math teacher named Paul (three versions of that one).

• 7. Mike Carroll  |  June 4th, 2008 at 2:00 pm

  You got me on the limericks and probably the Latin mass as well although at one time (I was an altar boy as well and it was lousy wine) I could recite it verbatim. I’ll take you on in translating Thucydides’ History of the Peloponnesian War however.

• 8. Menlo Bob  |  June 4th, 2008 at 3:26 pm

  Sauce still ain’t over his faith. Only this time he wants it to reflect his ideas. Could be that he thinks of himself as a dieity.

• 9. Menlo Bob  |  June 4th, 2008 at 3:34 pm

  Redrover; watch who you’re calling thugs. The list includes Clinton, Biden, Baucus, Bayh, Breaux, Cantwell, Carnahan, Carper, Cleland,Daschle, Dodd, Dorgan, Edwards, Feinstein, Harkin, Hollings, Johnson, Kerry, Kohl, Landrieu, and Lieberman. Democrats all.

• 10. kaus  |  June 4th, 2008 at 6:58 pm

  Good point Menlo Bob….and don’t forget, Ho Chi Minh was a saint in Red’s book of heroes.

  Pat has big problems with the Catholic Church…but Trinity UCoC gets a pass.

• 11. Pat Cunningham  |  June 4th, 2008 at 7:14 pm

  Kaus: I have no “problems with the Catholic church.” I don’t agree with very much of the church’s philosophy, but the matter is no problem for me. By the same token, I don’t figure the hierarchy are losing any sleep over what I might think (although it would be kind of cool if they did). To coin a phrase, some of my best friends are Catholics.

• 12. Bookworm  |  June 4th, 2008 at 8:54 pm

  l’m going to dig out my old Catholic journalist hat here (I once worked for a diocesan newspaper) and add a few observations.
  First of all, what evidence do we have that this incident even happened, or happened exactly the way Kmiec reported it? There’s no date or place cited, nor is the name of the priest or his diocesan or order affiliation given. Has anyone seriously tried to get his side of the story? I would want at least one other source on this. Is someone perhaps trying to paint Kmiec as a martyr?
  Assuming that Kmiec’s story is accurate, the priest who did this was very likely misinformed and/or acting outside his authority. Church law and some recent statements of Pope Benedict XVI indicate that communion may be denied to Catholics who “manifestly” (i.e. publicly and obviously) defy church teaching or morals. How this rule is enforced in the case of pro-choice Catholic politicans is left up to local bishops.
  Many bishops will approach a pro-choice Catholic officeholder or candidate privately and advise them not to recieve Communion, but if the person insists upon receiving anyway will not make a public issue of it. Others have chosen to make a more public stand.
  Other statements made in recent years by the pope and other bishops indicate that voting for or supporting pro-abortion candidates is considered sinful ONLY if you support the candidate specifically BECAUSE of their stand on abortion. However, one may support a pro-choice candidate IN SPITE OF their stand on abortion if there is a justifying reason to do so. What constitutes a justifying reason is the subject of much debate and some Catholics define this more strictly than others.
  If a priest did indeed refuse Communion to Kmiec simply because he has endorsed Obama for president, I conclude that priest was not acting in accord with church law since Kmiec himself has made it clear he does NOT endorse abortion in any way. Again, however, I have serious questions about the veracity of this story because it has not been independently confirmed as far as I know.
  I personally am a lifelong, practicing pro-life Catholic and I do believe that Catholic public figures who go out of their way to endorse abortion and refuse to take even the most minimal steps to protect unborn life are indeed a source of scandal. I also consider a candidate’s stand on protection of human life to be a very important factor in deciding how to vote.
  However, I do not think Catholics should be effectively forced to vote ONLY for candidates who say they are pro-life, regardless of their integrity, competence, or realistic ability to make a difference in abortion laws. A pro-life officeholder who turns out to be corrupt or incompetent does more harm than good to the pro-life cause.

• 13. Pat Cunningham  |  June 4th, 2008 at 9:55 pm

  Bookworm: You and I are on opposite sides of the abortion issue (as a political matter), but you’ve stated your case on this aspect quite well. I invite you to check out what I said about abortion here:
  http://blogs.e-rockford.com/applesauce/2008/05/11/mccain-finds-himself-on-the-horns-of-a-political-and-moral-dilemma/

• 14. redrover  |  June 5th, 2008 at 10:27 am

  Dear Menlo Bob,

  Thank you for listing the charter members of the DINO club who supported Bush’s criminal invasion of Iraq.

  Yes they are all thugs in my opinion.

  Here’s another thing you might not have ever thought of, MB :
  Just because I despise Bush and what he’s done to our country does NOT make me a Democrat.

  Guess what: A thinking person can have a political philosophy that is inimical to both the Democratic and Republican parties.

  One DOES NOT have to choose between them, capish?

• 15. redrover  |  June 5th, 2008 at 10:36 am

  Gee whiz, Kaus, you certainly think you know a whole lot about me and what I believe.

  Please tell me more about myself, every time you feel the need to, and help me escape from my prison of self-ignorance.

  Omniscience is a great gift, Kaus. Use it well. God knows that you deserve it!

• 16. redrover  |  June 5th, 2008 at 10:53 am

  Here’s just one more manifestation of the cowardice and hypocrisy of the Catholic Church vis-a-vis the sanctity of human life and the morality of the Iraq War:

  Prelate Reassures Catholic Soldiers
  Service in Iraq War Sanctioned
  By Alan Cooperman
  Washington Post Staff Writer
  Wednesday, April 2, 2003; Page A28
  http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A5899-2003Apr1?language=printer

• 17. Pat Cunningham  |  June 5th, 2008 at 11:56 am

  Rover: Didn’t you know that Kaus is a mental telepathist? He’s forever telling people what they really think and believe. It’s a gift.

• 18. Kaus  |  June 5th, 2008 at 12:15 pm

  Red, I obviously don’t know you, but you said something in a prior post that has bothered me ever since..You said “why should I should I not “sympathize” with Ho Chi Minh? He was a freedom fighter same as George Washington”. Obviously you are no republican or democrat….but will probably vote for Jimmy Obamesiah for president because of similar beliefs.

• 19. CR  |  June 5th, 2008 at 3:52 pm

  Reddawg, I suppose you completely abstain from voting, especially for any “DINO” who saw evidence to support ousting Saddam (before it became politically inconvenient of course). Who are the members of that club by the way? 99% of the lefties in Congress perhaps? You didn’t vote in ’04 because you have a conscience, right? “Just because I despise Bush and what he’s done to our country..” you say. Yet you consider Ho Chi Minh a freedom fighter? Would you embrace the slogan “Communism has only killed 100 million people, let’s try it again”? What a hypocrite.

• 20. Craig Knauss  |  June 5th, 2008 at 7:07 pm

  After we left Viet Nam, one of our generals stated that we lost there because we were supporting a French speaking, Roman Catholic aristocracy in a country full of Vietnamese speaking, Buddhist peasants. Ho Chi Minh was one of those peasants. He chased out the colonial French, and he chased out our puppet government which was widely disliked by the peasants. Whether you like him or not, he was to the Vietnamese what George Washington was to our colonists. He got the outsiders off their backs. And Kaus, what’s with the childish comment about Obama? Did Obama tell you what his beliefs are or did you get them from some telepathic experience (Wikipedia)?

• 21. kaus  |  June 5th, 2008 at 8:46 pm

  Craig….read your history book. In 1946, when H? traveled outside of the country, his subordinates imprisoned 25,000 non-communist nationalists and forced 6,000 others to flee.[11] Hundreds of political opponents were also killed in July that same year.[12] All rival political parties were banned and local governments purged[13] to minimise opposition later on.

  Does that sound like George Washington to you?

• 22. Craig Knauss  |  June 5th, 2008 at 10:23 pm

  And where were the French during all of this? After the Japanese left, they returned and didn’t pull out until 1954. Regardless, Ho Chi Minh pushed the outsiders out of the country.

  And you still didn’t explain how you know what Obama’s beliefs are. Although, I’ll concede that yours are quite transparent.

• 23. Bookworm  |  June 5th, 2008 at 10:54 pm

  I did read your post and posted a reply there.

  I’ll summarize it here by saying that I believe abortion ought to be regarded as a human rights issue that transcends party politics. I would like to see BOTH major parties remove any stand for or against abortion from their official platforms and grant their endorsement to anyone who agrees with their basic economic and foreign policy approach, regardless of whether they are pro-life or pro-choice. There should be at least as many pro-life Democrats as there are pro-choice Republicans.

  By the way, how did this thread suddenly turn into a debate about the French in Vietnam?

• 24. Mike Carroll  |  June 6th, 2008 at 7:10 am

  Bookworm-I’m not sure how this thread was hijacked but I thought your posts were excellent.

• 25. Pat Cunningham  |  June 6th, 2008 at 8:08 am

  Bookworm: I agree with Mike. There’ll be a little extra in your envelope come payday. By the way, have you ever read any of Garry Wills’ books on Catholicism? Or Sam Harris or Christopher Hitchens on atheism? Provocative stuff all the way around. But don’t take me for an atheist. I’m an agnostic. My motto: I don’t KNOW, and you don’t either.

• 26. redrover  |  June 6th, 2008 at 11:58 am

  CR,

  Please remember that Saddam Hussein was protected, supported and subsidized by the Reagan Administration even though it KNEW that Saddam was criminally using chemical weapons against the Iranians and his own Iraqi citizens:

  Shaking Hands with Saddam Hussein:
  The U.S. Tilts toward Iraq, 1980-1984
  National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 82
  Edited by Joyce Battle
  February 25, 2003
  http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

  Reagan Played Decisive Role in Saddam Hussein’s Survival in Iran-Iraq War
  Published on Wednesday, June 9, 2004 by the Agence France Presse
  http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0609-01.htm

  The Ties That Blind
  How Reagan Armed Saddam with Chemical Weapons
  By NORM DIXON
  http://www.counterpunch.org/dixon06172004.html

  Had it not been for US support for his brutal and hated regime, Saddam would have been overthrown by his own people because his war against Iran was so unpopular.

  This same despicable policy — that of US support for tyrannical dictatorships in the name of corporate profit and geopolitical advantage despite their crimes against the human rights of their own citizens — is still screwing up the world.

  If you hate communist tyranny, CR, then you should be venting your anger not against me but against our commie-loving Congressman Don Manzullo and other hypocrites of his ilk from both parties who support “free trade” and “constructive engagement” with Communist China, despite the fact that it has done NOTHING to improve human rights of Chinese citizens, and everything to make those tyrants even stronger militarily and economically.

  As for the big bad bogeyman, Saddam, what was it exactly that transformed him from being Ronald Reagan’s Sweetheart to George Bush’s Favorite Bête Noire?

  You got an answer for that CR? If so, I’d just love to read it.

  I’m proud to say that I voted for Ross Perot twice and for Ralph Nader twice without ever having to close my eyes and hold my nose while doing so.

  Match that, those of you who dutifully toe the two-party line!

• 27. Bookworm  |  June 7th, 2008 at 2:40 pm

  It sure would be nice if I had a little extra pay for my alleged words of wisdom… I no longer work in the journalism sector though.

  I have certainly heard of the authors you mention, though I haven’t actually read them. I suspect I probably wouldn’t agree with a lot of what they say — but, it’s only fair that we (conservative-leaning Catholic types) give atheists, non-Christians, liberals and disgruntled Catholics the same respectful hearing we would want them to give us. Conservative I may be, but I dropped out of the Limbaugh Institute years ago and am not particularly fond of verbal bomb-throwing.

  So, I will put those books on my to-do list, since I appreciate your taking the time to listen to me and get something out of what little I was able to write.

  I don’t claim to know absolutely everything about God either, and I will certainly never claim to be a saint.

  P.S. To go back to the story that started this thread, some more details have come out. Apparently it was a college chaplain presiding at a Mass for Catholic business people who refused Kmiec Communion and publicly chastised him for supporting Obama. There seems to be some consensus among those knowledgable in church law that the priest did NOT act appropriately in this case.

• 28. Pat Cunningham  |  June 7th, 2008 at 7:06 pm

  Bookworm: You really should give Garry Wills a try. He’s a genuine public intellectual and a Pulitzer Prize-winning author who’s written great books on American history, popular culture and Catholicism. He’s a former seminarian and is extremely knowledgable on Catholic history. Harris and Hitchens have had popular books on atheism. Hitchens also is considered a leading public intellectual and has been a prominent hawk on the Iraq war.

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