24 Comments Add your own

• 1. Neftali  |  December 1st, 2009 at 7:38 pm

  Pat - Your bleeding liberal heart has once again clouded your better judgment.

  Those people in the picture are Afghan Mujahideen, not Taliban.

  And that quote comes from Reagan referring to the Contras in Nicaragua.

  http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/reagan/peopleevents/pande08.html

• 2. Pat Cunningham  |  December 1st, 2009 at 8:22 pm

  Neftali: Two points:

  1) I don’t doubt that Reagan equated the Contras with our Founding Fathers, but my research indicates that the quotation that appears beneath the photo above was applied to the Afghan people who appear with him in that photo. A Google search produces hundreds of citations supporting that conclusion — and none refuting it.

  2) While it’s true that the Taliban did not exist when that photo was taken in 1985, they did subsequently evolve from the Mujahideen, as did al-Qaeda.

• 3. Craig Knauss  |  December 1st, 2009 at 8:55 pm

  And Neftali, one of those Mujahedeen leaders was the now famous Osama bin Laden, whose father is a long time friend of George H.W. Bush. I just thought your conservative jerking knee should know.

• 4. Neftali  |  December 1st, 2009 at 8:58 pm

  Pat, read the first paragraph of the link I provided. Then provide me a more reliable source than PBS that proves me wrong.

  The fact is that Reagan did not say that statement about the Afghans.

• 5. Pat Cunningham  |  December 1st, 2009 at 9:11 pm

  Neftali: I’m not going to prove that you’re wrong, because I didn’t say you were wrong. Read the first 12 words of my comment: “I don’t doubt that Reagan equated the Contras with our Founding Fathers…”

  Now, I suggest that you check this:
  http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4GGLL_enUS337US337&num=100&q=reagan+%22moral+equivalents%22+%22founding+fathers%22+&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

• 6. Neftali  |  December 1st, 2009 at 9:24 pm

  Yeah, and look at those sources, Pat. Its all urban legend B.S. Of that, I have no doubt.

  Craig - I’m sure Bush Sr. and Daddy bin Laden had tea and crumpets every Tuesday afternoon. Who cares? What’s your point?

• 7. Pat Cunningham  |  December 1st, 2009 at 9:36 pm

  Hold on, Neftali. You’re not getting off that easily.

  You’ve peddled a lot of crap in this thread.

  1) You cited a source saying that Reagan equated the Contras with the Founding Fathers. I agreed with that, but you wrongly accused me of disagreeing and demanded that I prove you wrong.

  2) You said that Reagan DID NOT equate his Afghan visitors in 1985 with the Founding Fathers, and when I cited hundreds of sources indicating that, in fact, he did do that, you casually dismissed those sources as “urban legend B.S.”

  The bottom line here is that Reagan equated both the Contras and the Mujahideen with the Founding Fathers. I can accept that fact, but you apparently can’t.

  In short, you’re full of crap.

• 8. Pat Cunningham  |  December 1st, 2009 at 9:42 pm

  One other thing, Neftali: While we’re on the subject of Ronald Reagan’s respective relationships with the Contras and radical Islamists, let’s not forget that wonderful chapter known as the Iran-Contra Affair:
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran%E2%80%93Contra_affair

• 9. Neftali  |  December 1st, 2009 at 9:59 pm

  No, Pat. Here’s the truth. Reagan gave that quote once, not twice. Some liberal either deliberately or mistakenly attributed that quote to that photograph, and it took off from there.

  Seriously, think logically for a second. Do you honestly think that Reagan went around comparing every small time rebel organization that he met with the founding fathers? Yeah, I know Reagan’s memory, and perhaps even his judgment wasn’t as sharp in his later office years, but come on.

• 10. Pat Cunningham  |  December 1st, 2009 at 10:18 pm

  Neftali: The fact of the matter is that a Google search of Reagan’s mention of “moral equivalents of America’s Founding Fathers” produces far more references to his Afghan visitors at the White House in 1985 than to the Contras. I’m willing to concede that he probably made the comparison in both cases, but you, for some reason, just can’t accept that.

  By the way, if you want further evidence of Reagan comparing the Mujahideen with the Founding Fathers, here are thousands more:

  http://www.google.com/search?q=reagan+mujahideen+%22founding+fathers%22&hl=en&rlz=1T4GGLL_enUS337US337&num=100&sa=2

  Now, since we’ve got all of this evidence, let’s see you prove it wrong. Don’t bother checking Snopes or any of the other urban-legend debunkers. There’s nothing there.

  If the stuff I’ve cited is false, and if there are thousands of such citations, you would think that some Reagan lovers would have effectively refuted it by now. But so such luck.

• 11. Neftali  |  December 1st, 2009 at 10:48 pm

  I can’t believe that you actually think that the number of web hits adds credibility to your argument. If that was the case, then Obama really was born in Kenya. How many google hits does that bring up? Does it make it any more accurate?

  But hey, let’s look at the first 5 hits from your query in comment #10

  1. From some site called “political inquirer”. They sound about as reliable as Word net Daily.

  2.The hit is from a question asked in the comment section from someone called “Mike”

  3. Wikipedia entry on the Reagan Doctrine. Only mention of that quote refers to the Contras, not the Afghans.

  4. A google groups entry from an obviously confused person.

  5. Another entry referring to the Contras, not Afghans.

  I could go on, but what’s the point?

  Get some sleep Pat. You’re embarrassing yourself.

• 12. Pat Cunningham  |  December 1st, 2009 at 10:54 pm

  Neftali: Prove me wrong. Put up or shut up. There are thousands and thousands of citations on my side. Prove them wrong. You can’t. As I say, not even the usual urban-legend debunkers have disproven this stuff. Why do you find it so difficult to believe that Reagan compared the Afghan “freedom fighters” to the Founding Fathers? What is it about that that so offends you? Why are you so weird on this subject? Give it up, Neftali. You’re never going to disprove it. It is you who should be embarrassed here.

• 13. Neftali  |  December 1st, 2009 at 11:28 pm

  Now you’re not even making any sense. You are the one claiming that Reagan made the comparison, so its you that has to prove it….from a reliable source. As I’ve stated thousands of web sites claim that Obama was born in Kenya. All those citations are obviously wrong.

  Its impossible to prove that somebody never said a certain quote, it is possible to prove something was said. The responsibility falls on you, not me.

  Put it another way. If I claim “Pat said the Cubs are going to win the Wold Series this year.” It would be my responsibility to prove such an allegation. It would not be your responsibility to prove that you never said it.

  BTW, I could actually care less if Reagan said it or not, its just a matter of proving a point.

  Good luck with your search.

• 14. Pat Cunningham  |  December 2nd, 2009 at 7:25 am

  Neftali: You still don’t get it. Your comparison of this matter with that birth-certificate stuff is totally bogus. Yes, lots of Web sites have said Obama was born in Kenya, but lots more have effectively refuted that nonsense. In this case, lots of Web sites have cited Reagan’s Founding Fathers remark about the Mujahideen, but NONE that I know of have refuted it. Not even the staunchest of Reagan’s admirers have stepped up to declare that he never said any such thing about the Afghans.

  You say that it’s my responsibility to prove that Reagan made such a statement, and I have proven it with THOUSANDS of Internet citations. Your claim that he never said such a thing is totally unsupported.

  End of argument, Neftali. Absent any further evidence for your side, you lose.

• 15. Neftali  |  December 2nd, 2009 at 8:26 am

  Provide me with one credible source that claims he said it. Just one, and I’ll concede you are correct. Until then there is no doubt that you are undeniably wrong.

  I have a PBS link and wikipedia link on my side referring that quote to the Contras. What do YOU have Pat? Don’t give me this thousands of citations b.s.. All you need is ONE credible source.

  Pat its so pathetically obvious that you have no idea how search engines work. It reminds me the story of the model who tried to file a lawsuit against google for providing a link to a website calling her a skank. Well, the only problem is that the lawsuit only made the situation worse. Now instead of one site, there were thousands of articles with the model’s name and the word “skank” in them. Same thing applies here.

  I’ve proven where the link comes from by referencing two credible sources. You can’t provide a singular credible source. So the argument ends here. Absent any further evidence for your side, you lose.

• 16. Pat Cunningham  |  December 2nd, 2009 at 8:44 am

  Give it up, Neftali. You’re only embarrassing yourself. Your sources linking Reagan’s remark to the Contras DO NOT refer to that quotation in its entirety: “These gentlemen are the moral equivalents of America’s Founding Fathers.” My sources (thousands of them) linking the remark to the Mujahideen DO refer to that quotation in its entirety.

  Moreover, my sources attribute the remark to Reagan as he was introducing his Afghan visitors to the media. Clearly, the term “these gentlemen” suggests that the people to whom he referred were with him at the time. But I know of no occasion on which Reagan met personally with any of the Contras and presented them to the media.

  You lose this argument, Neftali. And frankly, I’m tired of it. It’s my thousands of sources citing the entire quotation to your NONE (zip, zilch, nada).

• 17. shawnnews  |  December 2nd, 2009 at 9:04 am

  I have some supporting evidence on Neftali’s side Pat.
  This is the PBS link Neftali was talking about.
  http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/reagan/peopleevents/pande08.html
  In the Ronald Reagan speech archive at University of Texas I found this news conference from March 19, 1987. The question is from Andrea Mitchell.

  Iran Arms and Contra Aid Controversy

  Q. Long before the diversion of funds to the contras, the Tower board has documented 2 years of an extensive U.S. military support for the contras at a time when Congress ruled that to be illegal — air strips, phony corporations, tax-exempt foundations — all directed by Oliver North and John Poindexter and, before them, Robert McFarlane, out of the White House. And the question is, how could all this be taking place — millions and millions of dollars — without you having known about it, especially at a time when you were calling the contras the moral equivalent of our Founding Fathers?

  The President. Andrea [Andrea Mitchell, NBC News], I don’t believe — I was aware that there are private groups and private individuals in this country — I don’t believe it was counter to our law that these people were voluntarily offering help, just as we’ve seen in the past. We had a thing called the Abraham Lincoln Brigade in Spain in the civil war there. And I don’t know how much that would amount to. I don’t know whether it’s enough to keep them in business or not. But I do know that it is absolutely vital that we not back away from this. We’ve had some experiences in our country where the Congress has turned on a President. Angola was the most recent example, perhaps — when in Angola, when it ceased being a colony and the civil war broke out there and there was a Communist faction and there was a group that wanted democracy. And an American President asked Congress just for money — no blood, just money to help the democratic people of Angola have a democratic government. They don’t have a democratic government; they have a Communist government now, and there are 37,000 Cuban soldiers fighting their battle.

  http://www.reagan.utexas.edu/search/speeches/speech_srch.html

  I haven’t found the original speech yet.

• 18. shawnnews  |  December 2nd, 2009 at 9:15 am

  Pat, here is another article in Neftali’s favor. Time Magazine archive.
  “Central America the Propoganda War” Mar. 11, 1985
  Page 4 or 4
  http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,962573-4,00.html

  At week’s end the contras and some of their Nicaraguan civilian allies weighed in, calling on Ortega to declare a cease-fire in the conflict between the two sides, guarantee civil liberties in Nicaragua and establish by March 20 a general amnesty for political crimes. The White House, for its part, seemed intent on soldiering on in the propaganda war over Nicaragua. Before Shultz and Ortega held their meeting, President Reagan extolled the contras to a group of U.S. conservatives meeting in Washington as “the moral equivalent of our Founding Fathers and the brave men and women of the French Resistance.” He told the gathering, “We cannot turn away from them. For the struggle here is not right vs. left, but right vs. wrong.” However it is described, the struggle will be long: Administration officials consider it unlikely that the funding question will formally come in front of Congress before April, perhaps even as late as May.

• 19. Pat Cunningham  |  December 2nd, 2009 at 9:20 am

  shawnnews: I have NEVER denied that Reagan equated the Contras with the Founding Fathers. I’m sure he did. My point is that he also equated the Afghan “freedom fighters,” as he called them, with the Founding Fathers. I have cited thousands of sources on that score, and Neftali has cited NO SOURCES to dispute that fact. The argument is over. I’m not going to respond anymore unless somebody comes up with evidence that Reagan DID NOT equate the Afghans with the Founding Fathers. All the evidence indicates that he did, and NONE of the evidence proves that he didn’t. Indeed, not even his most avid fans have said he didn’t.

• 20. Milton Waddams  |  December 2nd, 2009 at 10:56 am

  The Reagan/Mujahideen continually repeated quote is from a speech given by Eqbal Ahmad, Professor Emeritus of International Relations and Middle Eastern Studies at Hampshire College in Amherst, Massachusetts on Oct 12, 1998. Here is an excerpt from the speech, the full text of which is available here. Now, on September 29, 1998, I was rather amused to notice a picture of Yasir Arafat to the right of President Bill Clinton. To his left is Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netan­yahu. Clinton is looking towards Arafat and Arafat is looking literally like a meek mouse. Just a few years earlier he used to appear with this very menacing look around him, with a gun appearing menacing from his belt. You remember those pictures, and you remember the next one.

  In 1985, President Ronald Reagan received a group of bearded men. These bearded men I was writing about in those days in The New Yorker, actually did. They were very ferocious-looking bearded men with turbans looking like they came from another century. President Reagan received them in the White House. After receiving them he spoke to the press. He pointed towards them, I’m sure some of you will recall that moment, and said, “These are the moral equivalent of America’s founding fathers”. These were the Afghan Mujahiddin. They were at the time, guns in hand, battling the Evil Empire. They were the moral equivalent of our founding fathers!

  Do these lines look familiar? They should, they are the exact same ones that are cited “thousands of times.” Additionally, with regards to your no debunking website comment, here’s one. So to sum up the “thousands of citations” are actually citations of a second hand source. No original citation could be found.

• 21. Milton Waddams  |  December 2nd, 2009 at 11:01 am

  2 links in my previous message flagged me for moderation, so I will try reposting differently…

  The Reagan/Mujahideen continually repeated quote is from a speech given by Eqbal Ahmad, Professor Emeritus of International Relations and Middle Eastern Studies at Hampshire College in Amherst, Massachusetts on Oct 12, 1998. Here is an excerpt from the speech, the full text of which is available here.
  “Now, on September 29, 1998, I was rather amused to notice a picture of Yasir Arafat to the right of President Bill Clinton. To his left is Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netan­yahu. Clinton is looking towards Arafat and Arafat is looking literally like a meek mouse. Just a few years earlier he used to appear with this very menacing look around him, with a gun appearing menacing from his belt. You remember those pictures, and you remember the next one.

  In 1985, President Ronald Reagan received a group of bearded men. These bearded men I was writing about in those days in The New Yorker, actually did. They were very ferocious-looking bearded men with turbans looking like they came from another century. President Reagan received them in the White House. After receiving them he spoke to the press. He pointed towards them, I’m sure some of you will recall that moment, and said, “These are the moral equivalent of America’s founding fathers”. These were the Afghan Mujahiddin. They were at the time, guns in hand, battling the Evil Empire. They were the moral equivalent of our founding fathers!”

  Do these lines look familiar? They should, they are the exact same ones that are cited “thousands of times.”

• 22. Milton Waddams  |  December 2nd, 2009 at 11:05 am

  Here’s the 2nd part…

  Additionally, with regards to your no debunking website comment, here’s one. So to sum up the “thousands of citations” are actually citations of a second hand source. No original citation could be found.

  I am not familiar with the Debunking website and their debunking is not definitive, however considering the actual source of the “thousands of citations” I would tend to agree that no original source can be found, it is most likely a wrongly attributed quote. That being said, Reagan and Co. supported the Mujahideen, regardless of what he called them. The mujahideen became the Taliban, the rest is just argument for argument’s sake.

• 23. Pat Cunningham  |  December 2nd, 2009 at 12:42 pm

  Milton: Good work. If you’re right, I stand corrected. You seem to have accomplished what Neftali could not. He kept implying wrongly that I doubted that Reagan had equated the Contras with the Founding Fathers, but he couldn’t disprove that Reagan did the same with the Mujahideen. Your sources, on the other hand, raise serious doubts about that. I wish I could have found those myself.

• 24. shawnnews  |  December 2nd, 2009 at 10:32 pm

  Snuss is saying the first thing he can think of rather than thinking before speaking. Domcrats forced out of office or punished in some social way for their crimes or indescretions include Bill Clinton, Eliot Spitzer, Gary Condit, Mel Reynolds, Dan Rostenkowski, Jesse Jackson Rod Blagojevich and James Trafficant among others.
  Here’s the difference — the democrats don’t campaign primarily on what sort of Christians they are or how they are for some sort of “family values” or some other nonsense. Liking family life as a qualification for office is important to guillable people.

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