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A look at UK healthcare – the future of Obamacare?

Some of the horror stories that occur in the British healthcare system may be read in the “UK Government-Run Healthcare System: Soiled Bedclothes, Starving Patients” article by Daniel J. Mitchell in the latest issue of Townhall.

The UK healthcare system’s rationing is well known. With its “one size fits all,” government controlled, inadequately funded, overburdened medical healthcare providers and inefficient, incompetent, sloppy hospital system, which provides healthcare for all, at supposedly less cost, is unfathomable compared to the healthcare in America that Obamacare seeks to replace.

Excerpt:

The largest and most detailed survey into hospital deaths has revealed that almost 12,000 patients are needlessly dying every year as a result of poor patient care. The researchers from The London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine based the study on 1,000 deaths at 10 NHS trusts during 2009.

The study revealed that basic errors were made in more than one in 10 cases, leading to 5.2% of deaths, which was the equivalent of nearly 12,000 preventable deaths in hospitals in England every year. The research published in the British Medical Journal’s Quality and Safety publication found that errors occurred when hospital staff made an incorrect diagnosis, prescribed the wrong drugs, failed to monitor a patient’s condition or react when a patient deteriorated.

Errors in omission were more frequent than active mistakes. The majority of patients who died were elderly suffering with multiple health conditions, but the study found that some patients whose deaths were preventable were aged in their 30s and 40s.

More excerpts if you can believe them:

Hundreds of hospital patients died needlessly. In the wards, people lay starving, thirsty and in soiled bedclothes, buzzers droning hopelessly as their cries for help went ignored. Some received the wrong medication; some, none at all.

Decisions about which patients to treat were left to receptionists…and nurses switched off equipment because they did not know how to use it. …patients were left so dehydrated that some began drinking from flower vases.

Patients were left without medication, food and drink, and left on commodes. Basic hygiene was neglected: a woman was left unwashed for the last four weeks of her life. Relatives tried to keep their loved ones clean, scrubbing down beds and furniture and even bringing in clean linen. One consultant described how amid the chaos, it seemed as though nurses became “immune to the sound of pain”.

There are many more links and references throughout the article if you are willing to visualize some of these scenarios. It is a difficult task.

It never ceases to amaze me that our so-called government experts, fail to see what is obvious to the most casual observer, that the path our government has chosen, both financially and with respect to healthcare, has already been traveled by the UK and many European-socialistic countries and they have lost their way – yet America continues down the same path?

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54 Comments

  1. Ted – Are you making the assumption that our healthcare professionals are going to callously provide substandard care under the Affordable Care Act?

  2. I would suggest that ObamaCare is going to make it impossible for a shrinking number of healthcare providers, who will receive less compensation, to provide an equal or better standard of care for a lot more patients.

    I also see more businesses laying people off, or cutting hours, because of the extra costs of ObamaCare.

    Further, I see the cost to patients going up because of the ObamaCare taxes on medical equipment, and the cost of mandates to insurance providers being passed on to consumers.

    Given those changes, health care providers will not be able to provide the standard of care that I am certain that they would want to provide.

    • Ted Biondo

      You are correct on all counts SNuss. All you left out is that the costs are already going up with the expectation of Obamacare, then add 30M patients, watch the inefficiency of any government-run program increase. Add a two-tiered healthcare system, which will crop up because healthcare providers have already formed these programs in Canada and add everything mentioned in the claims by JRM and you have the UK.

      Add to that, JRM is again knocking those that disagree with him, rather than point out how the current UK system got the way it is now. JRM, do you believe that all these people in the UK are lying in the article and links provided to show that socialized medicine doesn’t work and never will?

      Britain has been doing their one-size-fits-all NHS healthcare for quite a while. With socialism you soon run out of other people’s money – it happens, and their healthcare system is the result. People with money will work around Obamacare even if they have to leave the country or start up another system, unless Obama will forbid healthcare freedom entirely in the future.

      I will for the time being, look for the higher-tier to get medical care for my heart valve or simply die. Good Luck with Obamacare, buddy!

  3. JRM_CommonSense

    This is the type of observation usually made by people:

    that claim the PPACA is 2000 pages long; that claim there will be “death panels” that will make decisions to ration healthcare; that claim that the government has taken over the insurance industry;

    that claims that many doctors will quit taking patients and/or leave the profession;

    that claim that the principles of demand and supply will have finally met an industry where it doesn’t work;

    that claim that insurance companies will not welcome 30 million additional customers with open arms to their mega-millions pool of current customers;

    that claim that doctors, nurses, all other healthcare workers, hospitals and hospital systems will utterly fail to be able to serve the client base that is out there;

    and finally,

    that the sole purpose of the current government is to overthrow many very successful, profitable industries and millions of well trained dedicated workers and subjugate them to some supposed socialist or communist societal/financial model.

    And these are the people who claim those that disagree with them are drinking the kool-aid! Wow that is amazing!

  4. JRM_CommonSense

    I am not going to argue about the U.K. Healthcare system. Why not? The PPACA or the Obama administration calls for nothing that comes remotely close to proposing anything close to the structure and/or financing of the U.K’s NHS.

    All the boogie men that the detractors spout are just that boogie men. If you are use to playing that boogie man game, and drink the far right brand of kool-aid, you can turn even the good things into a boogie man. The PPACA is not the only thing they do this with.

    Remember the birther campaign designed to scare voter?
    Remember the Obama is the socialist campaign designed to scare voters?
    Remember the Obama is a muslim campaign that suggested that his goal was to turn this nation into one ruled by Muslin law?
    Remember that the Obama administration (particularly the bailouts) are the cause of the deep recession that happened overnight on January 20, 2009?
    Remember that Obama, through ACORN, caused all of the sub-prime mortgages to be forced down the throats of all those poor people so that the housing market would collapse and cause a recession?
    Remember that “the vast majority” of the deficit happened after January 20, 2009.?
    Remember that the Republicans would win all levels of the federal government in November 2012 and bring order to this country immediately?
    Remember that the Justice Department set up fast and furious as a means of supplying guns to the drug cartels?
    Remember that limiting the sale of semi-automatice weapon that look like assault weapons and high capacity magazines really means a ban on the ownership of all guns and gets rid of the 2nd amendment”.
    Remember that because some warped minded people got a court to agree that a manger scene should not be in a town square causing Christ to been taken out of Christmas and everyone’s freedom of religion has been taken away.
    And now we see the latest one here, and I quote it verbatim: “unless Obama will forbid healthcare freedom entirely in the future”.

    Just look for a boogie man, and behind it you will find a far right Republican that thinks they can get themselves back into complete power to impose their wills on the people, by scaring them to death. (Oh, maybe that’s the death panel they are really talking about).

    If you don’t believe me, go back to the last few months of this and many other posting sites and you will see lots of very inconsequential thing turned into boogie men – supported solely by quoting far right talking heads or youtube. If it is a non-far-right idea or politician, or someone you don’t agree with, it has got to be a boogie man.

    And what are the most used comments or words in this type of rhetoric – leftist looney, liberal wing-nut, socialist, communist, freeloaders, robbing the taxpayers, “Messiah” and many more of that ilk. These words are not facts that support an argument, they are personal opinions and/or interpretations. And just like the people they are attempting to denigrate, they take the path of knocking those who disagree with them

    “Oh my God, here is an idea that we don’t like. Quick, we have to hang it up like a piñata and get everyone to hit it with every kind of stick promising that the Republican candy that they will get is so much better!”

    • Ted Biondo

      You will understand the motives of this president someday, JRM. The Supreme Court got it wrong too – it is not a tax, which was necessary to make it constitutional. It will take awhile, but all people like Obama can’t help themselves. They love to control other people’s behavior, even if it kills them.

      If this president forces the health system to cut costs as promised – there will be rationing. It’s mathematically impossible to do what PPACA is trying to do without a decrease in healthcare, with a limited supply of healthcare providers, resources, and 30M more people in the current system.

  5. Is the $700 billion taken from Medicare to fund ObamaCare, a “boogeyman”?
    Is the CBO report that ObamaCare will expand to over double it’s original cost in the first decade, a “boogeyman”?
    Are the cost of ObamaCare mandates to insurers, and their clients, a “boogeyman”?
    Are the ObamaCare tax increases on medical equipment, and other things, a “boogeyman”?
    Are the ObamaCare penalties to businesses and individuals, a “boogeyman”?

    They ARE scary, they ARE real, they WILL hurt businesses, and increase unemployment, further damaging our economy. No “boogeymen”, just facts.

  6. The Afffordable Care Act has been declared constitutional and the Republican/Teabaggers lost the election so get over it.

  7. JRM_CommonSense

    Yes Stuart, they are the things that you are trying to make into boogie men. You are absolutely right about that, for a change.

    However, you are wrong when you claim that they are facts. None of your “facts” have happened, and probably never will happen. All they are so far is opinions and/or speculation with no supporting facts to rely on. You cannot say that they will happen for certain, so they cannot be proven factually. They cannot be a fact just because you and others say so, no matter how you wish that were true or how big a boogie man you try to make them.

  8. @ Steverino: Slavery used to be Constitutional, at one time. The Obama version of socialist slavery may be repealed, once the citizenry comes to its senses, and realizes that we have to make a choice between Obamunist tax slavery, or realistic fiscal discipline.

  9. Ted, no matter what happens ACA will be a success, just think about

    Warrant-less wiretapping was a crime against the Constitution under Bush but not under Obama, in fact did we hear a word about it?

    Didn’t we get daily news coverage of soldiers being killed in Afghanistan when Bush was president?
    Were not drone strikes a war crime under Bush but for Obama, no problem?

    Did you hear that Obama kept his promise on Guantanamo, oh well he wants to.

    Homelessness on the rise, only a problem when a Republican in office.

    Katrina was a fobar, but Sandy Hook was a model of organizational efficiency, if you don’t listen to those directly affected.

    We had Benghazi and the stories told were not truthful and no one loses their job. In fact this wasn’t really news.

    Can you really think that the ACA will be anything but a huge success, hey my rates went up about $70.00 a week, things are going up that is good right?

    I am thinking with easy medical access, there will be an increase in demand (headaches, hang nails etc. ), but the supply of services will remain the same. Time will tell if supply will increase to meet demand and if not we are the UK only will few 100 million more people.

  10. shawnnews

    There were four people out of a job after Benghazi.
    http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/19/us/state-benghazi-report/index.html
    To be upset that people died in Libya is a correct response. I suppose you must be broken up about the 241 servicemen killed in Beirut in 1983 and completely hold Ronald Reagan accountable… but I bet not.
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,183262,00.html
    In fact, people want to canonize Reagan as some sort of American treasure.

  11. Britain has realized it can’t afford its entitlement program

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2261487/Britain-long-afford-pay-extortionate-cost-welfare-state.html

    The only way something like ObamaCare will ever have a chance to survive is if their is a broad-based payroll tax like Medicare and SocSec. It can’t be this tax the 2% class warfare manure that Obama has been peddling as a panecea for all the country’s financial ills. Let’s see the democrats provide the only real solution and see what happens.

    Neither FICA nor Medicare have kept the customer satisified AND also kept within their initial estimated long-term budgets. FICA rates started out a 1% and our now 6.2%. Medicare started at .35% and are now 1.45% and also the income cap was lifted off of Medicare. Obamacare will meet this same fate and tax this country into constant a low-growth/recessionary economy.

  12. Benghazi penalties are bogus
    shawnnews, that is old information.

    “The four officials supposedly out of jobs because of their blunders in the run-up to the deadly Benghazi terror attack remain on the State Department payroll — and will all be back to work soon, The Post has learned.

    The highest-ranking official caught up in the scandal, Assistant Secretary of State Eric Boswell, has not “resigned” from government service, as officials said last week. He is just switching desks. And the other three are simply on administrative leave and are expected back.”

    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/benghazi_penalties_are_bogus_ncP7RZx5uTIgDPbTp5WtoN

  13. Benghazi penalties are bogus
    shawnnews, that is old information.

    “The four officials supposedly out of jobs because of their blunders in the run-up to the deadly Benghazi terror attack remain on the State Department payroll — and will all be back to work soon, The Post has learned.

    The highest-ranking official caught up in the scandal, Assistant Secretary of State Eric Boswell, has not “resigned” from government service, as officials said last week. He is just switching desks. And the other three are simply on administrative leave and are expected back.”

    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/benghazi_penalties_are_bogus_ncP7RZx5uTIgDPbTp5WtoN

  14. SNuss – The citizenry did come to their senses and voted in the November election.

  15. You mean the ones who voted for “Obama Claus”.

    We can’t afford to fund Obamunism. There aren’t enough rich people. Even with the new Obama taxes on the wealthy, our annual deficit will STILL exceed a trillion dollars, and will for years to come. Our debt will exceed $20 trillion, before Obama leaves office. How long can that level of spending be maintained, before our economy collapses like a house of cards?

  16. shawnnews

    The only people reporting that these people are still on the payroll — which could be due to the speed of paperwork — is the NY Post, FOX (both Murdoch outlets) and partisan parrot sites. In this case I’d wait and see.

    • Ted Biondo

      You are right, Shawnnews – the people should only believe The Huff Post, NBC, CBS, and ABC. Everyone knows they are not biased in any way!!

  17. FYI, shawn, this fact might interest you:

    As of the 13th of October, 2012, 1,567 of the 2,136 US troops killed in Afghanistan have died since Obama became president of the United States. That is, 73% of all troops fatalities there happened in the 45 months since Obama took office. The number of wounded has also gone up an incredible amount: almost 5 times the number of people have been wounded under Obama as under Bush.
    Source:

    Well, shawn, aren’t you proud of “The Messiah’s” record as CIC?

    As to Beirut, the (politically-correct) rules of engagement (ROE) severely restricted the use of force, not allowing Marines to carry loaded weapons, allowing them to shoot only if they could verify that their lives were in danger and only if they could clearly identify a specific target.

    I sincerely doubt that Pres. Reagan issued the ROE for that mission.

  18. JRM_CommonSense

    Let’s look at some facts of what healthcare IS in this country. These are not opinions. They are the facts of three of my most recent encounters with healthcare organizations and doctors – Monday, January 7th, Saturday, January 12, and Today, January 14th.

    Monday, January 7th was a scheduled follow-up appointment with my family doctor who is in Internal Medicine (usually recommended for any patient over 60). Arrived at doctor’s office (a part of one of the largest healthcare organizations in the Rockford area) at 1o:45am for an 11:00am appointment. Called by the nurse at 11:00am and weight, temperature, blood pressure, and health record updates completed and ready for the doctor by 11:10am. Doctor arrived in the exam room at 11:15am. By 11:35am, checks completed, adjustment to medication ordered, referral for an age and health history recommended ultrasound check completed, printed out appointment results, followup actions, and next appointment requirements in hand, and headed out the office door. Out of pocket cost = $10.00 for the co-pay. The insurance I have (AND PAY FOR) covers the rest of the cost 100%. . BTW, these printed notes included written instructions on how to create and account into the electronic medical records from my doctor’s organizations which are requiremetns of the PPACA. Pretty cool, can see all test results, reorder meds, send questions, and have changes in vitals or test result tracked over time.

    Saturday, January 13: some discomforts started in late morning. By mid-afternoon decided it was time to see a doctor. Called my doctor and found that the office was not open. Checked my insurance requirements on line and determinded that there were two immediate care options within reasonable – One a fancy new facitlity perched on a hill on a busy intersection with a beautiful pond, a great walking track, and a whole bunch of geese. And the other a smaller immediate care facility just around the corner from my house. Called for wait times and found the big fancy place was swamped with flu patients and there was a 2 hour wait. The small immediate care facility said they had a 15 minute wait.

    Obviously I went to the small immediate care where it took 5 minutes to fill out the paperwork. Called in by the nurse 2 miunutes later; had vitals and problem statement completed and test sample dispensed in 10 minutes; test results were available 5 minutes later and was talking with the doctor. Doctor did some additional checks to rule out possible other causes, prescribed and had medication deliver in the course of 10 minutes and I was on my way back home. Since I had recovered from the discomfort by the next day, chances are this was a successful medical encounter. Out of pocket cost = $10.00 for the prescription (at the clinic). The insurance I have (AND PAY FOR) covers the rest of the cost 100%.

    In terms of the referral from January 7th, the health system’s central scheduler had called me by Wednesday, January 9th and set up the appointment for January 14th (They guarantee 24 hour turn around on getting an appointmeny). Arrived at the hospital at 9:30am for a 10:00am appointment. We left the hospital to go to breakfast at 9:55am (remember the appointmentment was for 10:00am. Out of pocket cost = $0.00. The insurance I have (AND PAY FOR) covers the cost of the procedure 100%.

    Tell me that is not world class health care and that it is all going to disappear because Obama wants to install “socialized medicine”. I seriously doubt it.

    • Ted Biondo

      JRM – it is world class healthcare compared to the garbage in the UK and yes, it will disappear because Obama wants to instill the UK’s “socialized one-size-fits-all medicine” in conjunction with 30M more people using the same facilities and resources. The medical system can not ramp up fast enough by 2014 with the time it would take to train competent healthcare providers that they will need to cover the overflow of patients, regardless of how the care is paid for.

      Of course, with the waivers that Obama has given to his friends, unions and financial supporters, that may cut it down some of the millions needing care, but our care in America will still be affected. Not only will there not be enough providers, many will quit, start their own businesses, not except Medicare, or what’s left of it, nor Obamacare patients.

      So healthcare providers will decrease for the time being when Obamacare cuts the providers salaries by 27%, which again just missed happening this year with the fiscal cliff, and has been renewed for only one more year to coincide with the great Obamacare’s full unveiling in 2014.

  19. Up to 1,200 needless deaths, patients abused, staff bullied to meet targets… yet a secret inquiry into failing hospital says no one’s to blame

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1253438/Mid-Staffordshire-NHS-hospital-routinely-neglected-patients.html#ixzz2I18Vi4Lp
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

  20. One woman’s lonely death on the NHS’s ‘care pathway’ to the grave: MPs demand action after another patient is chosen to die without doctors telling family

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2217747/A-lonely-death-care-pathway-MPs-demand-action-patient-chosen-die-doctors-telling-family.html#ixzz2I196rVKf
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

  21. @jrm: care to name your insurance company, and the employer who offered that level of coverage?

    My office visit co-pays are much higher (and even more for specialists), and my co-pays for meds are as high as $50.00.

  22. JRM_CommonSense

    My plan is not an employer sponsered plan…

  23. The reason medical costs are going up markedly is because we can actually TREAT people. In 1940, if you got something bad you died. In 1970, we had some treatments but it was generally the same. Today, we can treat a LOT of conditions and increase duration and quality of life a great deal.

    Also, as staunch Republicans who hate socialism sooooo much, how are you okay with our most important citizens, our troops, going to a COMPLETELY socialist single-payer VA system?

    Oh, they can get drugs for ~33% less than a normal hospital can by the way. Also, they get first crack at drugs on national shortage too. I just know the drug numbers, but I am sure they have gigantic cost savings compared to a standard community hospital in almost every area as well. That single payer is POWERFUL.

  24. JRM_CommonSense

    Just some thoughs and questions:

    What exactly are “Obamacare patients” that the providers who will quit and start their own businesses will not “except” (sic)?

    AND why wouldn’t there be a flood of well educated doctors and healthcare providers from other countries who would want to come to the U.S. and practice medicine in the best equipped, best paying healthcare environment in the world? After all, the principles of supply and demand are not dependent solely on home grown products or personnel. Look what happened in the tech-environment!

  25. Gee, Wally, where are all these doctors going to come from? Don’t THEIR countries need doctors, too?

    Will they be just like the illegal aliens, “doing the jobs that Americans won’t do”?

    Won’t these doctors be subject to the same litigious society and malpractice insurance problems as our current doctors?

    Who will subsidize the start-up costs for all these physicians?

    If they work on nothing but MediCare patients, they won’t be in ” the best equipped, best paying healthcare environment”, will they?

    Gee, Beav, some really loopy Leftists must have thought up this lame idea.

  26. JRM_CommonSense

    Gee Stuart, didn’t the countries that all the high-tech H-1B workers come from need high-tech workers too; yet they came. And they continue to come.

    No, Stewie, they will not be illegal aliens, since they will have to have their medical credentials approved and their status approved.

    Because they are doctors, they will be subject to the same rules, regulations and standards as every other doctor in this country.

    Well Stu, when these doctors are hired into the various “existing” healthcare organizations, hospitals, and clinics around the country, they will work out of the existing facilities or any new facilities that the hiring organizations decide to build. To make the assumption that each one will open their own offices and/or facilities shows a lack of understanding of how things work in the healthcare world now days. Or maybe you are just pretending that this will happen to set up your unsupportable position.

    To make the assumption that they would be working on nothing but MediCare patients or that the facilities where MediCare patients are taken care of are substandard or low paying just re-enforces how really deep your lack of understanding of how things work in the healthcare world today has gotten. Or maybe you are just pretending that this will happen to set up your unsupportable position.

    Gee Beav, some really uninformed, pretend know-it-all must have thought up all these lame, boogie man problems. Next time come up with something that is even close to being believable.

  27. “Next time come up with something that is even close to being believable.”

    Like your claim above that the medical equipment tax that went into effect 16 days ago “(hasn’t) happened, and probably never will happen.”

    Or your claim above that ObamaCare penalties to businesses and individuals, codified into the PPACA, are just “opinions and/or speculation with no supporting facts to rely on.”

    Or your claim above that the cost of ObamaCare mandates to insurers, and their clients (which I can assure you from first-hand experience are already well into the millions for my self-insured employer) “cannot be proven factually”.

    Is that the kind of believability you’re shooting for?

    Also, just out of curiosity, when you earlier gushed about the state of healthcare in this country and your great coverage, you repeatedly referred to “the insurance I have (AND PAY FOR)”. Did that include both the Medicare you enrolled in last March and a supplement or just one of those? If both, I don’t find your small co-pays that amazing as my father’s co-pays are similarly low due to the coordination of benefits between the two plans. But most of us don’t have two plans.

  28. JRM_CommonSense

    I noticed you didn’t bother to mention all of the other 63 “boogey men” that these people have passed around here in this particular post – just a selected few (3) that have barely started or are barely implemented.

    You are right, the medical equipment tax has started “barely 16 days ago”, however, it is an “opinion” that it “WILL hurt businesses, and increase unemployment, further damaging our economy”. That is a “boogey man” approach I am referring to.

    You are right, there are tax “penalties to businesses and individuals, codified into the PPACA”. However, those tax penalties do not take effect until 2014. The difficulties the increased cost “already well into the millions for my self-insured employer” most likely have to do with the mandate that all insurance policies provided by employers must meet some basic requirements and provide some basic coverages. Since your employer has decided that it wants to be your insurance company, then it must meet those requirements. If your employer has chosen to pass their decisions to meet those requirements on to you in the form of increased premiums, that is no different that a regular insurance. Sorry, this is the law of the land. Attempts to portray this item that has, also only been in effect for relatively short period of time, as something that “WILL hurt businesses, and increase unemployment, further damaging our economy” is an opinion, not a fact. That is a “boogey man” approach I am referring to.

    AND, just what other “penalties to businesses and individuals, codified into the PPACA” are you talking about? Like SNuss , who I was replying to, you make this global “boogey man” statement and seem to be supporting SNuss’s statement that it “WILL hurt businesses, and increase unemployment, further damaging our economy”. That is also an “opinion”! Show me the details of that very generalized statement and then you can call it fact. Until that time, it is the “boogey man” statement the people intended it to be.

    And finally, Yes it is Medicare that I “enrolled in last March” AND paid for for 35 years and also still pay for out of my Social Security check (which I also paid the annual maximun into for 35 years). I have chosen the Medicare Advantage approach which requires an additional premium, as does my dental policy. I am going to assume that you understand the difference between advantage plan versus a supplement, so I will not explain it to you.

    In case you missed it, the COST was not the main point of my post about my recent experiences. It was the structure of the service, the timeliness of the service, and the professionlism of the service; and all that happening as a time when healthcare facilities are swamped with this flu epidemic.

  29. Boogeymen, huh?

    According to George F. Will,

    “Cook Medical is no longer planning to open a U.S. factory a year. Boston Scientific, planning for a more than $100 million charge against earnings in 2013, recently built a $35 million research and development facility in Ireland and is building a $150 million factory in China. (Capital goes where it is welcome and stays where it is well-treated.) Stryker Corp., based in Michigan, blames the tax for 1,000 layoffs. Zimmer, based in Indiana, is laying off 450 and taking a $50 million charge against earnings. Medtronic expects an annual charge against earnings of $175 million. Covidien, now based in Ireland, has cited the tax in explaining 200 layoffs and a decision to move some production to Costa Rica and Mexico. ”

    Alexis Lukianov, the CEO of NuVasive, estimated that a tax on medical devices companies would mean the loss of 200 jobs in 2013.

    And that isn’t all: See: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2893226/posts

  30. JRM, I’d like to know where you get your insurance as well. I pay about 18k a year for health insurance (family) and my copay is $40.00 with a $1000.00 deductible.
    I have Blue Cross, I’d sure like to have your policy.

  31. JRM_CommonSense

    A quote from your link: “As part of the Obamacare bill, a 2.3 percent tax increase on medical device manufacturers will begin in 2013, and could equate to $29 billion in additional taxes on medical device manufacturers, a cost which will inevitably be passed to the consumer.”

    Now let me try to understand this logic. We all know that anytime there is an increase in any kind of costs for a manufacturer, it is always passed on to the consumer. This seems to be what this quote is also saying.

    So, if that is the case, how can someone claim that these increases in costs, which are being passed on to the consumers, are also the reason for them laying off more workers, not expanding their facilities, taking charges against earnings, and/or building new facilities in other countries?

    What those creating the “boogie man” headlines always fail to mention is that the new tax does not apply to medical devices made in the United States but then exported for sale overseas. What they fail to mention is that plants are built outside the U.S. because many countries now demand local content as a requirement for allowing products to be sold in their countries. What they fail to mention is that when you build plants to satisfy demand outside the U.S. you often downsize U.S. operations because you have excess cpacity. Those might be important things to mention!

    They also forget to mention that the PPACA increases the potential consumer pool for medical devices and the revenue of device manufacturers by some 3o million more Americans, or by more than 10 percent.

    Conveniently, failing to detail the complete picture, one can turn any situation into a “boogie man”. If you don’t believe me, just read your own posts.

  32. Of course, jrm, with his borderline-omnipotent wisdom is telling us the unvarnished truth, and all these medical device companies are creating these layoffs and cutbacks just to spite him.

    Liberal cognitive dissonance must be so nice to have. If you disagree with someone, you can just create your own distorted version of reality, and proclaim it to be indisputable fact.

  33. JRM_CommonSense

    No, they are making these layoffs, like many other U. S. companies, because the requirements for significantly more local content in their products to compete in the global market has made the positions here redundant. Sorry if you cannot, or chose not, to understand that.

    Remember, these are the same business decision makers that took all of those Bush/Obama tax cut dollars that were “going to create jobs”, put them in the bank, moved lots of their production capacity to foreign shores (again due to local content requirements as well as cheaper labor costs), and laid off record numbers of people from 2005 to 2010.

    And, BTW, your entire last post is a perfect example of the methodology you defined as: “If you disagree with someone, you can just create your own distorted version of reality, and proclaim it to be indisputable fact.” Also known as the “boogie man” approach, it is usually coupled with or followed by name calling or obtuse references to some sort of made-up anatomical disfunction of the person disagreed with. Class act!

  34. That dang lying Democrat!
    Thanks JRM for setting us straight!

    Evan Bayh: ObamaCare’s Tax Raid on Medical Devices
    “That calculation ignored the fact that the vast majority of medical-device consumers already are covered by Medicare, Medicaid or private insurance. So there will be little or no increase in sales volume to offset the added cost of $30 billion—according to the Congressional Budget Office—to the industry. This tax comes straight out of a company’s bottom line. Because many devices are sold to hospitals, physicians and other providers through multiyear contracts, the prices are already locked in, so the tax cannot be passed on to the buyer. ”
    Hard to pass costs on when the prices are fixed..

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444620104578012281306687070.html

  35. Now quit trying to confuse jrm’s delusions with facts. It just aggravates his anklyoproctia, and makes him (even more) cranky.

    This should aggravate him a bit more:

    Seventeen Senate Democrats, including Senator-Elect Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts, Senators Franken and Klobuchar of Minnesota, and Senator Durbin of Illinois, have written a letter to the Senate Majority Leader, Harry Reid, calling for repeal of the 2.3% excise tax on medical devices that is part of ObamaCare. A press release from Senator Franken says, “I am concerned that we are running out of time before this job-killing tax goes into effect.”

    Maybe they should have thought of that before they voted for the ObamaCare law that they now want to revise.

    The “job-killing tax,” as Senator Franken calls it, is scheduled to go into effect January 1.

    It’s nice to see Democrats opposing tax increases and acknowledging that there is a connection between taxes and employment levels.

    Source: http://www.futureofcapitalism.com/2012/12/democrats-oppose-obamacare-tax

    • Ted Biondo

      snuss, “they should have thought before they voted on it” – that assumes they read it before they voted on it and as you well know Pelosi told the jerks they had to vote for it to find out what was in it. Know they are starting to see what’s in it. Oh well, no one says those in Washington know what they are doing.

  36. Give it up snuss, JRM and Craig are the best and brightest…of what I don’t know, Got it?

  37. JRM_CommonSense

    “Also known as the “boogie man” approach, it is usually coupled with or followed by name calling or obtuse references to some sort of made-up anatomical disfunction of the person disagreed with. Class act!”

    Check- name calling occurred!

    Check- anatomical disfunction stated!

    And a bonus; the guy with the fishing hat staring through the fence shows up and pretends he has something worthwhile to contribute!

  38. Yeah, proving jrm wrong does make him cranky. Perhaps he should go back under his bridge for a nap.

  39. The JRM approach is make it up as you go a long and then when you are caught, take the high ground and accuse the other of creating their own distorted version of reality, and proclaiming it to be indisputable fact.

  40. JRM_CommonSense

    And when those people fail to adequately defend their positions they”take the high ground and accuse the other of creating their own distorted version of reality, and proclaiming it to be indisputable fact.” And then they call them names and bring up anatomical disfunctions that bring absolutely nothing to the discussion. But they are really consistent and it is about the only thing you can count on then to do.

  41. Adam Faber

    “Pelosi told the jerks they had to vote for it to find out what was in it”

    Ted, you’re on quite a roll this week taking quotations out of context. First you tried to change the President’s quote about being a deadbeat nation and now this. I’ll let your immature name calling slide for now while we review what Pelosi said in context:

    “You’ve heard about the controversies within the bill, the process about the bill, one or the other. But I don’t know if you have heard that it is legislation for the future, not just about health care for America, but about a healthier America, where preventive care is not something that you have to pay a deductible for or out of pocket. Prevention, prevention, prevention—it’s about diet, not diabetes. It’s going to be very, very exciting.

    “But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of the controversy.”

    In a June 2012 interview with the Washington Post, Pelosi further explained the environment which led up to her remarks:

    “In the fall of the year the outside groups…were saying ‘it’s about abortion,’ which it never was. ‘It’s about ‘death panels,’ which it never was. ‘It’s about a job-killer,’ which it creates four million. ‘It’s about increasing the deficit’; well, the main reason to pass it was to decrease the deficit.” Her contention was that the Senate “didn’t have a bill.” And until the Senate produced an actual piece of legislation that could be matched up and debated against what was passed by the House, no one truly knew what would be voted on. “They were still trying to woo the Republicans,” Pelosi said of the Senate leadership and the White House, trying to “get that 60th vote that never was coming. That’s why [there was a] reconciliation [vote]” that required only a simple majority.

    “So, that’s why I was saying we have to pass a bill so we can see so that we can show you what it is and what it isn’t,” Pelosi continued. “It is none of these things. It’s not going to be any of these things.” She recognized that her comment was “a good statement to take out of context.” “But the fact is, until you have a bill, you can’t really, we can’t really debunk what they’re saying….”

    (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/post/pelosi-defends-her-infamous-health-care-remark/2012/06/20/gJQAqch6qV_blog.html)

    See how she was trying to pass a bill in the House for the Senate to take up debate on it? Facts matter. Ted, when you continually misrepresent the truth, we are left to wonder if you’re intentionally misleading your readers or you’re simply gullible enough to unquestioningly believe the spin that the right-leaning infotainment outlets want you to. Which is it, Ted?

  42. More “blessings” from ObamaCare:

    Southwestern Pennsylvania hospital to stop baby deliveries

    Pregnant women in one southwestern Pennsylvania town will soon need to look elsewhere to deliver their babies, after a local hospital announced it will end the practice in March — blaming ObamaCare in part for the decision.

    The Windber Medical Center will stop delivering babies after March 31 because its obstetricians are either leaving or refocusing their practices, and because hospital officials believe they can’t afford it based on projected reimbursements under looming federal health care reforms.

    The hospital, about 60 miles southeast of Pittsburgh, is losing two obstetricians and two others are shifting their focus more to gynecology.

    Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/01/16/southwestern-pa-hospital-to-stop-baby-deliveries/#ixzz2IOHIPcVW

  43. JRM_CommonSense

    If you want the full story on the “Southwestern Pennsylvania hospital to stop baby deliveries” go to:

    http://tribune-democrat.com/news/x964875453/Windber-hospital-eliminating-obstetrics-program

    Once again Mr. SNuss selectively presented what seemed to support his bogus position, and failed to document the entire story. Why did he do that? Well, as usual, he was just regurgitating what Fox News reported in its attempt to distort the real situation to push its bogus agenda.

    The Hospital’s own website discribed the situation this way:

    “Faced with a change of practice direction by two Obstetricians and the planned relocation of the remaining obstetricians in 2013, the Board of Directors was compelled to complete a full assessment of the potential impact and determine the best course of action. After careful consideration, they concluded it will close the hospital’s obstetric (OB) program by the end of March of this year.

    Chairman of the Board, the Honorable David C. Klementik, expressed the feelings of the board by stating, “It is with heavy hearts that we inform the community that Windber Medical Center will be discontinuing its obstetric services.” He remarked that it was a difficult decision, but coupled with the recent and potential future changes in WMC OB providers, industry trends and market analysis, the board concluded that the timeliness and cost of recruiting a new team of obstetricians may not be feasible and therefore, may not serve in the hospital’s or community’s best interest.

    Barbara Cliff, President/CEO, stated that it is with sadness that we have to end such a wonderful and long standing service that has provided quality care to generations within the community. However, with the retention of long-standing and beloved physicians, Dr. Amy Anderson, Dr. Pradeep Kulkarni and Lisa Drennen, CRNP, continuing to provide gynecological services, the vision is to create a comprehensive women’s health care program to serve the community with specialized women’s services and outstanding care.

    We understand this change will be difficult for some of our dedicated employees and are working closely with the Human Resources Department to provide assistance as able throughout the transition and beyond to place them in other areas where there are opportunities due to openings and / or growth within the facility.

    During the transition period, WMC will work closely with its expectant mothers and is currently in preliminary discussions with local providers to accommodate future births. Extensive and personalized communications will be shared with all current patients, and a WMC liaison will be available to answer any questions or concerns.

    Like most hospitals in today’s challenging healthcare environment, the Board of Directors and executive leadership at Windber Medical Center continue to carefully evaluate the current state against reimbursement and industry trends. Expansion plans for WMC’s Emergency Department still continue to move forward. The newly renovated medical office building is near completion which will house those services currently in space that will be demolished for the future ED. The OB department will be used to accommodate the needs of our growing surgical services. WMC continues to be profitable and will continue in its mission to provide excellence in personalized, quality healthcare services.”

    Slightly different story than the one SNuss and Fox News wants us to believe. They seemed to have missed a few pertinent points/

  44. Of course, our Forum troll only trusts Media Matters, the Daily KOS, and the heavily-Left-biased Lamestream media. How fortunate he is, to have them do his thinking for him.

    Here is more about the damages caused by ObamaCare, that our troll will ignore, or attempt to spin:

    For starters, it has effectively stopped the construction of physician-owned hospitals throughout the country.

    Section 6001 of the health-care law required physician-owned hospitals to obtain their Medicare certification by the end of last year. Without it, they can’t treat Medicare patients. And the facilities needed to be open to get that certification.

    So construction halted at 45 hospitals as the New Year arrived. Work on countless others will never start, having been effectively banned by ObamaCare. This will limit competition in the health-care marketplace, driving up costs for patients.

    Of course, patients may have trouble finding not just a hospital, but a doctor. A Physician’s Foundation survey revealed that 40 percent of doctors plan to “drop out of patient care in the next one to three years.” Sixty percent said ObamaCare will “compel them to close or significantly restrict their practices to certain categories of patients” — typically those on Medicare or Medicaid.

    Health reform will force many folks to give up their current insurance, too.

    New rules requiring insurers in the individual and small-group markets to spend at least 80 percent of premium dollars on medical claims are intended to ensure that consumers get good value for their money. Instead, they’ll push many plans out of existence. And with fewer competitors to keep them honest, the insurers that survive will have an easier time raising rates.

    Other measures kicking in are petty — but punitive. For example, people can no longer use tax-free Health Savings Accounts on basic over-the-counter drugs. Instead, they must pay for a doctor’s appointment — and then get a prescription for a pricier pharmacist-dispensed drug.

    Consider the case of Claritin, an allergy medication that recently was approved for OTC use. A report from the National Center for Policy Analysis found that longtime users of the drug saw their daily costs fall 80 percent, from about $2.50 to just 50 cents. ObamaCare reverses this trend by encouraging people to opt for higher-priced prescription drugs when a cheaper OTC medication would work just as well.

    And some measures are cut-off-your-nose-to-spite-your-face punitive — like the new $2.5 billion excise tax on pharmaceutical companies. Drug manufacturers won’t simply swallow this new bill; they’ll pass it onto consumers in the form of higher prices.

    Thus, by (for example) increasing the cost of care for patients who need cholesterol-lowering statins or cancer-fighting meds, ObamaCare harms our health.

    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/the_damage_has_already_begun_pzcq1MmzRb3O626H6Q7PqI

  45. Adam,

    “See how she was trying to pass a bill in the House for the Senate to take up debate on it?” Can’t they debate the bill in the House to find out what’s in it? She wanted to ram this thru the House so it could get rammed thru the Seante. Once people found out more about the bill, the less they were going to like it.

    On a personal note, the company I work for has already told us that are options in terms of health care packages (HMOs, PPOs, or deductible) are being eliminated. We will be left with a high deductible plan only. Also, they have shown us that are premiums will go up 50% over the next two years. That amounts to 5,000 peed-off employees.

  46. Off subject, but a glaring example of the media and them being in the bag for one political party.

    “It was a lie told in the critical state of Ohio in the final days of a close campaign — that Jeep was moving its U.S. production to China. It originated with a conservative blogger, who twisted an accurate news story into a falsehood. Then it picked up steam when the Drudge Report ran with it. Even though Jeep’s parent company gave a quick and clear denial, Mitt Romney repeated it and his campaign turned it into a TV ad.

    And they stood by the claim, even as the media and the public expressed collective outrage against something so obviously false.”

    oops!

    http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/whoops-politifacts-lie-year-turns-out-be-true_696223.html

  47. Wilson,

    Another thing that Romney got right that Obama scoffed at while claiming that al Qaeda was decimated was when in the 3rd debate he warned about the rise of al Qaeda in Mali.

  48. No bias in the MSM? I know the ACA will always be a stunning success!
    When in 2008 Senator Ted Stevens was indicted on corruption-related charges, the very first word in ABC News’s headline was “Republican.” And the R-word was mentioned four more times in the story.

    But when ABC’s Good Morning America ran a segment this morning on the indictment on charges of corruption of Ray Nagin, former Mayor of New Orleans, it never revealed—either by spoken word or screen graphic—that Nagin is a Democrat. Note that this was not some short news blip: GMA took a full minute-and-a-half to tell the story, but couldn’t find a few seconds to mention Nagin’s party affiliation. View the video after the jump.

    Read more: http://newsbusters.org/blogs/mark-finkelstein/2013/01/19/good-morning-america-fails-reveal-indicted-former-new-orleans-mayo#ixzz2IcYrJqCr

  49. Wilson I have seen Fox do the same thing, what is your point? The media can’t be trusted? Is that news to you as well?

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