20 Comments Add your own

• 1. Don R. Gugliuzza  |  April 7th, 2008 at 5:47 pm

  Jon, normally I agree with your position on almost anything. But, we are polar opposites on this.
  Yes, they are illegal. They came into our country illegally. That makes them illegal aliens or illegal immigrants.
  Yes, they are people and should be treated as such. However, those U.S. citizens who’s jobs they have taken or have lowered the wages on are people too. They are legal people. We have an ever increasing number of our citizens out of work.
  This country is not responsible for the conditions in the home countriies of the people who have come here illegally. We, as a country, have done more than anyother country in the world to help the poor and destitute. We are not ogres, insesitive, unfeeling or uncaring. Every year we allow more people into our country, legally, than any other nation of the world. Actually, we allow more people to legally come to our country that all the other countries combined.
  Illegal aliens do not come into our country at no cost to U.S. citizens or legal immigrants. They overload our school systems, apply and get financial assistance, and obtain medical and dental care at no cost to them. All of this while not only taking jobs our citizens could use, but lowering the wages of those of us who are still working. Check out what’s happened to wages in industries that illegal aliens have become the majority in such as meat packing, construction and the service industries.
  Now for the arguement against a fence. We have the right to protect the sovereignty of our country. Other nations do it, we can too. If Mexico, for instance, feels that a fence across our southern border is demeaning and racist, why do they protect their southern border with armed soldiers and deny access to their country by force?
  No, Jon, this is not a case of mean spiritedness, racism or xenophobia. It is our right and duty to protect our country and it’s people.Nothing more, nothing less. We have shipped jobs to Mexico and they still have women working in assembly work for 50 cents an hour. Ten hour days for $5.00. That’s not us, it’s their government, our corporations, and our national leaders in Washington that are keeping these people in economic bondage.
  Calling them illegal alliens or illegal immigrants is not an attempt to dehumanize these people. It’s an answer to those who are pro-amnest and pro- opern borders who keep lumping the illegal immigrants in with the legal immigrants.
  Sorry to be at odds with you on this, but I feel at least as strongly about my position as you do about yours.

• 2. Phil Mooney  |  April 7th, 2008 at 7:05 pm

  Hi Jon,
  As a former Rockfordian that is now located in Phoenix, AZ, I would have to disagree completely with your opinion. I have lived in Arizona for 3 years and my state currently allows for the majority of Mexican illegal immigration to take place. We have a broken border with no clear solution in site that will work for both sides of “the fence”.

  My position is that they are obviously human beings and should be treated as such when they are caught and put on the bus back to Mexico where they currently hold citizenship. We have no obligation to pay taxes for their medical care, food stamps, and bus fare back to their country of origin…yet we do. My fellow Phoenicians suffer a financial loss every year for these services that our city and state provide yet we are repaid with their gratitude by having to pay the second highest car insurance rates in the nation. This expense is primarily due to Mexican citizen’s (illegal immigrants) being involved in car accidents and being uninsured. Our teachers in the Phoenix Metro Area are required to have at least 1 year of Spanish and 25% of all teachers must speak fluent spanish, which equals higher wages and higher taxes that our citizens pay.

  So, spare me this hypothetical, unoriginal, never going to get through legislation idea and start giving solutions that affect your fellow AMERICAN taxpaying citizens in a positive way, and I will start to respect your opinion. The closest immigration problem you have seen in the Rockford area is people emmigrating elsewhere due to local economic problems, horrendous mismanagement of city funds, and lack of leadership in the community.

• 3. Jon Murray  |  April 7th, 2008 at 8:30 pm

  Don…Thanks for your comments…I respect your opinion so I appreciate your critique of my position. I do believe that many of the jobs that are in question are jobs that aren’t being filled by Americans…the meat packing industry as an example. We have huge numbers of undocumented workers in this country right now and that is not good for anyone. I expect we will continue to debate this in the months ahead.
  Jon

• 4. Bob  |  April 7th, 2008 at 8:45 pm

  Democrat or not a Democrat. You are mislead in either event. Don R. Gugliuzza nails it spot on. There are none so blind as those who refuse to see. The first step to your recovery is to hit bottom and I don’t think you’re quite there yet. But when you finally crash into total disappointment, the first step back to reality is acknowledgement that you can’t help yourself anymore. After that if you’re willling to open your mind to reality, truth will overtake you and as you confront it, you will heal.
  In the meanwhile, take care and God Bless America!

• 5. Jon Murray  |  April 8th, 2008 at 6:41 am

  Gee Whiz, Bob…I\’ve been thinkin\’ this way for a long time…you mean I\’m going to hit bottom and crash and burn? I would suggest you don\’t hold your breath…it\’s not gonna happen soon. In defense of my thinking…at least I can see shades of gray…it is NOT a black and white world. Perhaps some day you will see that there are two sides to an issue. It would be pretty boring if we all thought the way you do.

• 6. Jon Murray  |  April 8th, 2008 at 6:50 am

  Phil….
  Just because we don’t have the immigration issues in Northern Illinois that you Arizonans have (Is Arizonan a word?) doesn’t mean we don’t have the right to a opinion. Actually I believe the Illinois is in the top five states for illegal immigration. Undocumented workers are a huge problem…and wishing it weren’t so isn’t going to fix it. I would suggest that your perspective is unrealistically hypothetical and isn’t going to change a thing. We need action through legislation. We’ve talked this thing to death in congress and beyond. How about a little action from our legislators. Also, I don’t live in Rockford, but, Rockford bashing gets a little old. And, mismanagement of funds at the municipal level doesn’t even start to get close to what’s happening at the federal level…and look who’s been in office for the past seven years.

• 7. Don R. Gugliuzza  |  April 8th, 2008 at 7:17 am

  As evidenced last year in the Senate, the majority of the people of this country do not want open borders or amnesty in any form. The people who are here illegally are law breakers. While I sympathize with them for the contidtion of thier home country, their reason for breaking our laws is not justification for doing so.
  If my family was hungry and living on the street and I robbed a bank to feed and house them, I would serve time in prison for breaking a federal law.
  Those who come here illegally have broken a federal law. The arguement that they pay taxes here doesn’t hold water. If they’re paying taxes it’s because they have stolen someone’s identitiy, another federal law broken. I’m sorry but there is no such thing as a law abiding illegal alien. They are felons and anyone aiding or abetting them is also guilty of breaking federal law. That means anyone who knowingly hires an illegal alien, any church assisting them, anyone allowing them to have food stamps, free medical and dental are also guilty. Those Senators and Congressmen and the President who are doing nothing to stem the flow of illegal aliens into this country are all guilty and should be impeached.
  Yes, I feel sorry for those people who are here illegally. But, they’ve seen our system of government and how it’s SUPPOSED to work. They’ve learned to take to the streets and protest, they’ve learned how to peacefully change govenments. They need to go back home and use this knowledge to make a better life for themselves and their families in their own countries.
  If we say it’s ok for this 12 to 20 million people to come here illegally because of the conditions in thier countries, how does it help those who are still at home? Does it make things better for them? We have to learn that we can’t continue to do what no other nation has ever done; provide for all the needy in this world.They have to shoulder their responsibilities and see to it that their country provides for them.

• 8. Jon Murray  |  April 8th, 2008 at 9:49 am

  I am not advocating open borders or continuation of illegal immigration. I am suggesting that we need to create a system whereby people from Mexico are able to legally work in the USA and we can document their existence. It would allow for the rule of law to resume and protect everyone (especially Americans). By doing this we would be able to create some order out of this chaos that currently exists. This would be a quick fix and give time for the long term solutions to take effect. Is it a perfect idea?…I’m sure it is not…but I’m trying to think outside the box and seek some resolution to what has become a ever increasing dilemma. Thinking outside the box and being creative and has nothing to do with my political leanings, my being “misled” or the other crazy things I’m being accused of. I’m actually a very reasonable and logical person and a pretty nice guy.

• 9. Don R. Gugliuzza  |  April 8th, 2008 at 2:41 pm

  I hope you don’t think I’m accusing you of anything. I understand your concerns on this matter. Part of the problem is that a lot of people did come into this country legally under one of our many work visa program. Unfortunately, no one in the federal government, for several presidencies, didn’t feel it was necessary to monitor the programs. So, people who came in under work visas and college visas just stayed here past the limits of their visas. I still think that with 5 million or more of our citizens out of work, we could find enough people to do the jobs. It’s not the work that keeps them from the jobs, but the low wages.
  I get really upset when I here our President, a member of Congress or some over paid corporate executive say that these are jobs our citizens won’t do. They’ll do them, they just won’t do them for starvation wages.
  Sorry if I lead you to believe that I don’t respect you or your position. I do. It’s just that I get passionate when I get involved in a discussion regarding illegal aliens. Damn my passion anyway. lol

• 10. Jon Murray  |  April 8th, 2008 at 5:35 pm

  No, Don I didn’t think you were accusing me of anything. I really do respect your opinion and it does make me think…so keep those ideas coming. My most recent post was kind of confusing because I was responding to a couple of earlier posts.
  Jon

• 11. Phil Mooney  |  April 8th, 2008 at 5:57 pm

  Jon,
  Arizonan is actually a word, believe it or not and John McCain happens to be one. I realize that you respect his opinion and are looking for the gray area in this matter, but I find it hard to see the gray area. John McCain recently changed his opinion whether it be due to the Republican presidential nomination or a personal revelation, he is now not in favor of amnesty for illegal immigrants.

  A few excerpts from the Mexican Constitution:

  Article 32
  “Mexicans shall have priority over foreigners under equality of circumstances for all classes of concessions and for all employment, positions, or commissions of the Government in which the status of citizenship is not indispensable.” Foreigners, immigrants, and even naturalized citizens of Mexico may not serve as military officers, Mexican-flagged ship and airline crew, or chiefs of seaports and airports.

  Article 33
  “The Federal Executive shall have the exclusive power to compel any foreigner whose remaining he may deem inexpedient to abandon the national territory immediately and without the necessity of previous legal action.” It also states: “Foreigners may not in any way participate in the political affairs of the country.”[1]

  Article 55
  A deputy or senator must be “a Mexican citizen by birth.”

  Article 91
  Cabinet officers must be Mexicans by birth.

  Article 95
  Supreme Court justices must be Mexican by birth.

  This looks to me like the Mexican government would not be in favor of you and me relocating to their country nor would they allow us to participate in their government affairs even if we wanted to live in the Godforsaken place.

  I realize that you feel sorry for the illegal immigrants and believe that they should have a better way of life. I have been to Mexico and agree that I would not want to participate in their lifestyle for an extended period of time. However, we as Americans are not compelled to give our hard earned tax dollars away to non-US citizens that are currently not paying taxes and probably never will.

  The responsibility to finding a solution to the border problem does not belong to the United States, it rests solely in the lap of the Mexican government which, despite decades and billions of dollars of bail out money—paid for, by the way, by the US tax payer—still languishes as one of the most cash strapped nations in all of the Americas. We do not need a guest worker program: these people are not doing jobs that Americans won’t do, they are doing jobs that Americans haven’t had to do. As cheap and exploitable laborers came into the country illegally they displaced the American work by depressing the wages. If they weren’t here the wages would go back up, and more and more Americans who couldn’t find a job doing anything else would take those agricultural jobs that Americans almost exclusively did before the illegal immigrants started pouring into the country.

  As far as leadership goes at the federal level you and I both probably share the same opinion. My key factors for the upcoming election are that we should be looking at how to fix our economic woes at home, abolish the IRS by going to a flat tax, and look towards stabilizing the healthcare costs. I’m sure you are aware that we currently spend 2 trillion dollars a year on healthcare and that will double in the next ten years, which happens to exceed the federal governments current proposed yearly budget.

• 12. Will  |  April 8th, 2008 at 9:46 pm

  I don’t believe Jon is saying that we should allow more illegal immigrants into the country and that it isn’t a problem, he is suggesting we take a more human approach to the situation rather than labeling all illegal immigrants as “illegals” which is a very demonizing term. And rather than building a fence to separate two countries and keep people out we should work on legislation to come up with alternative solutions to the problem. Think about what would have happened if the U.S. decided to find an alternative solution to Iraq? While building a fence is not comparable to a war, it is still an extreme measure that should not have to be taken.

  Phil, you quoted excepts from the Mexican constitution- It looks like their constitution is not as friendly towards foreigners as we would like it to be. But does that mean we should take similar views towards Mexicans? Certainly not! I realize you are not saying we should take similar views, however building a fence and saying “we don’t want you” isn’t too far off from stooping to that level.

  Illegal immigrants certainly are taking jobs that Americans will not do. I would highly recommend reading the book “Fast Food Nation” by Eric Schlosser, which takes a modern approach to Upton Sinclair’s “The Jungle”. There are many jobs Americans will not do because they are jobs in extremely dangerous conditions. Perhaps our government should create a solution that would encourage employers to hire legals rather than illegals.

• 13. Don R. Gugliuzza  |  April 9th, 2008 at 10:40 pm

  I think a more human approach would be to open those jobs to our out of work people. These are not jobs our citizens won’t do. They’re jobs we won’t do for substandard wages. The employers are not hiring the illegal aliens because they feel sorry for them. Actually, they don’t have any feelings for them except that they’re cheap labor and improve the bottom line of the company. Let’s not attribute compassion to the employers. They are not acting out of compassion. Let’s put a human face on this subject. For every illegal alien that is employed, a U. S. worker is unemployed. For every illegal alien employed, a U.S. family is on unemployement, food stamps and other types of public assistance. That means that not only are our citizens not employed and paying taxes, contributing to the economy, but they are subsisting on our tax money.
  Another consideration, most of the illegal aliens are not here to become American citizens. They are here to earn whatever they can, send it home and go back home when they accumulate enough money to live on.
  Do you want to know why the Mexican government is meddling in our country? It’s pure economics. Each year Mexican nationals here illegally, send more money back to Mexico than what Mexico earns selling oil to us and to others. That’s right. The biggest contribution to the Mexican economy comes from illegal aliens sending money back to Mexico. That’s money that our citizens could be earning and keeping in our country.
  There is no one, let me repeat, no one who has the welfare of the illegal aliens at heart. Not the employers who hire them because they work cheap. Not the inept unions who will use them to bolster their sagging membership, Not the politicians who see them as potential voters. Not the Catholic Church who knows that they are predominately Catholic and want them to bolster their membership losses. No one in power is acting out of a desire to help them. They want to keep them in economic servitude.
  So, if you really want to help them, apply pressure to their home countries to provide a better standard of living for them and stop helping those who are exploiting them for their own gain.

• 14. Hanni  |  April 10th, 2008 at 9:54 am

  To think that the immigration problems in the United States can be solved by a one-dimensional approach is to ignore the complex economic, social, political, and moral factors that are involved. In the same way, to see the undocumented immigrants’ situations in purely black in white is not to understand, or at least not to accept, reality.
  It was said in one of the posts, “If my family was hungry and living on the street and I robbed a bank to feed and house them, I would serve time in prison for breaking a federal law.” Yes, there is a good chance you would. But should you? Most people would think that is a very gray area. And what would prison solve? Your family would still be living in poverty, you would be in prison, and when you are released, you would be in no better position to care for your family. Prison, or in this case deportation, is a consequence but not a solution. When so much is at stake for a person, it is not realistic to think that a simple deterrent will stop a person from achieving their goal (working in the U.S.) In a country with so many resources and such great innovative thinking, we should be able to find a solution that reaches even beyond the problem and leaves us with a positive sum for the future, not simply breaking even. Let’s find ways to allow people to enter the country legally to work and to create humane and enforceable immigration policy. Let’s find ways to invest in undocumented workers and their families, such as healthcare and education, so that they can positively contribute to U.S. society. Instead of spending money on a wall, let’s use it to develop schools or microloans for small businesses in Latin America. Let’s find ways for undocumented workers to be self-sufficient in their own country. There is so much potential that is being lost in the current system, and that needs to change.

  Also, the anger and blame that is directed towards undocumented immigrants in most of these comments seems to be based on misguided assumptions. Undocumented immigrants do not received any type of welfare from the federal government. Even legal immigrants have to live in the United States for at least five years and become naturalized if they want to receive any type of welfare benefits. Also, there is evidence that a large and growing number of undocumented immigrants do pay taxes each year, not through stealing somebody’s identity (as one person commented), but through the Individual Tax Identification Number, a number that is legitimately obtained through the IRS and used as an alternative to a social security number. While it is true that some U.S. workers have lost jobs due to undocumented workers, it is not accurate to say that for every undocumented worker that is here one U.S. worker is unemployed. There are many more causes for unemployment than simply illegal immigration. On top of this, critics seem to forget, or ignore, the contributions that these immigrants make to the U.S. economy; many economists estimated that the contributions they make are more than any economic burden that is caused by their presence.

  Finally, I want to reiterate that this is a gray issue, if not legally at least morally. What about undocumented parents who have young children who are U.S. citizens? Should they be deported? What about a child who arrived illegally with his parents when he was two years old, and is now eighteen and knows no one in his home country and no other way of life besides the U.S.? Should he be deported because of his parents’ mistakes when he was a toddler? Should he be allowed to attend college here in the U.S.? Many states have passed laws that make it impossible for him to attend college without a social security number, despite having lived here for most of his life. Any amount of compassion will make these issues gray.

• 15. Jim_NH  |  April 10th, 2008 at 11:52 am

  As the grandson of immigrants I am deeply offended by your article. Of course we should welcome new immigrants; I also worked on behalf of the south-east asian refugees who came here in the early 1980\’s. Dont\’ belittle their efforts and sacrifices by your politically correct claptrap.

• 16. Don R. Gugliuzza  |  April 10th, 2008 at 1:22 pm

  I, too, am a grandson of immigrants. I have never been against legal immigration. I am, however, adamantly opposed to granting anything but a free ticket home to anyone who has violated our laws and our national sovereignty.
  As for your assertion that illegal aliens don’t receive welfare assistance from the federal government, you have carefully skirted the issue. You don’t make any mention of state and local assistance. No, I’m sorry, they broke the law to get here, have either taken jobs from or lowered the wages of our citizens, and take far more from us then they give to us….. including what little they might pay in taxes. In short, we don’t need illegal aliens here and should make every effort to identify them and send them home the first time they’re caught. If caught here illegally a second time, they should be imprrisoned in detention camps and be made to work cleaning up the mess they have made along the border. After than, sent home.

• 17. Jon Murray  |  April 10th, 2008 at 2:06 pm

  Jim…I’m not sure I get your point… How does the sacrifice of South East Asian refugees and their efforts and sacrifices relate to this issue and how are they being “belittled”? Also… “Politically correct claptrap”??? is that really how you perceive opinion different from your own?

• 18. Hanni  |  April 15th, 2008 at 10:23 pm

  Here’s a very interesting article was on cnn.com today regarding illegal immigrants and taxes:

  http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/personal/04/15/immigrant.taxes.ap/index.html

• 19. Hanni  |  April 15th, 2008 at 11:25 pm

  One more article that challenges some of the statements made in posts. This was published today on www.newsweek.com, and it discusses how a crackdown on illegal immigration in the Phoenix area has left a shortage of employees in the area (i.e., the jobs are not being filled by legal U.S. residents, whether immigrants or citizens). It also demonstrates the inhumane approach taken towards immigrants, whether legal or illegal, and the racism that exists in targeting all Latinos.

  http://www.newsweek.com/id/132231

• 20. Don R. Gugliuzza  |  April 16th, 2008 at 7:28 am

  There are over 5 million U.S. citizens out of work. I don’t believe that businesses can’t find qualified citizens to take these jobs. Maybe if the businessmen really tried to hire citizens and paid a decent wage, the positions would be filled. A case in point: when ICE raided meat packing plants in Iowa, the positions were filled the next day by our citizens.
  There is no shortage of labor in our country, only a shortage of citizens who will work for sub-standard wages with no benefits, Those who champion the cause of illegal immigrants should be ashamed of themselves for condoning the exploitation of those people because that’s all it is; exploitation. Those who hire illegal aliens and those who assist them are assuring that those people live in poverty all their lives. The illegal aliens have learned how to protest and march in the streets, why not assist them in going bact to their home countries so they can do the same and make things better in the country that they would rather call home? Why aren’t LaRaza, the Catholic Church, the ACLU and the unions helping them to live a better life in their countries? The answer: it would provide no benefit to THEM even though it would benefit the common person.

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